SPEAKER_01: 0:10

Hello, Jay.

SPEAKER_04: 0:13

Hello, sir. Hello, good sir.

SPEAKER_01: 0:15

I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_04: 0:16

Very, very well. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 0:18

Yeah, it's um this has been a long time coming. Uh, and I'll tell you what, it almost didn't happen today. My apologies for uh being a little bit late. So you said before, um, so for people who are listening, hello and welcome. Um, Jay and I are very similar but also quite different in how we manifest ourselves in the environment, I would say. So I turn up here to the University of Newcastle, uh, to the library, and Jay's just there chilling. Yeah, did you add your thongs on? Yeah, you know, just like single it on, all all good. And then you contrast that with me. You were saying before, well, because I've got no self-awareness of these things. So, what did I look like coming in?

SPEAKER_04: 1:02

Well, uh hot mess. Hello, Elliot's viewers and uh listeners. Well, it just energetically, you walked in and you're agitated, like um and your jaw was moving, and I was like, I could just tell that wherever you had come from, you were very flustered and you needed to slow down, relax your shoulders, start to breathe through your nose, and then you could have changed that quite quickly, which you kinda are right now, which is beautiful to see.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26

See, it he's he's working wonders already. Um but that is really the sort of crux of why I'm ex well, there's a few reasons, but this is one of the main ones, which is excuse me, that um that contrast that we have, I guess you're to me, you embody what I would like to get to, which is just being chill and just being happy with how things are going, and you know, nothing seems to faze you, whereas obviously the opposite is true for me. So um we're gonna get into some of the nitty-gritty of that sort of nervous system stuff, um, which will be good because I need to um I need to learn all about this and then try and uh use it in my life as well. Uh and I'm sure there's a lot of listeners who feel very similar to. Um, but I want to talk a bit about your story as well. Um, and I really want to talk about this 10-day silent retreat, was it, that you did?

SPEAKER_04: 2:28

Yeah, we'll call it a 10-day silent retreat. Uh the name for it is actually Vipassana, and uh, you don't want me to try and spell that out because I'll spell it wrong.

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

Um is that loving kindness?

SPEAKER_04: 2:39

That is indeed, yeah. Equanimity.

SPEAKER_01: 2:41

There you go. So um, yeah, I I really would like to talk about that experience because um ten days of silence just seems uh impossible to me. So yeah, I'm excited to hear about that, but I'm also excited to hear about your story and how you've obviously got to this point where you are today because there is a bit of a story, and you know, we love stories here on the dysregulated podcast, and it's good to be able to talk about someone else's, which is great, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate it as well. So we'll get into that too. Um, but I suppose how did you get on this journey? This is a very broad, open question. Feel free to obviously um talk about this from whatever angle you see fit, but um, yeah, how how did you get on the path to I don't know if you're quite at enlightenment yet, but you're certainly closer than I am.

SPEAKER_04: 3:36

I'll definitely take that compliment. So um closely though.

SPEAKER_01: 3:39

So please tell me how how did you get to this point here today recording with me?

SPEAKER_04: 3:45

Well, I think everyone has their own hero's journey, which gives everybody hope at the end of the day. Um my journey did not start off well though. Um it was fraught with a lot of uh resistance. I grew up, as the uh podcast name suggests, very dysregulated. So um yeah, growing up through school, I was struggling to spell, struggling to um read from a cafe menu. I would I don't know if anyone can uh can resonate with this, but I would uh read a menu at a coffee shop and I just could not read from left to right. I would start left and I'd be down the bottom right and then I'd be back up at the left, and then I'd just struggle and I'd get the thing that I always got because it just made it easier. Um and yeah, that made things very difficult getting through life, but I did not know how to be any better. I only know what I we only know what we know, not what we're being told, Elliot. So um it was quite the journey from that into where I am now for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 4:44

Did you know at that time, even from a young age, that your perception or understanding of the world might be a little bit different?

SPEAKER_04: 4:53

Um It definitely did, like I was mentioned too before we started the podcast. Uh I definitely had people like I had to get my best friends to enable me to get through these things. So my best friend at school, Mari, we would sit down in a spelling bee, and uh with our pencils, we would like write a word out like friend. And if I spelt friend wrong, um he would scribble out the word that was wrong and then over the top of it write what was uh correct.

SPEAKER_01: 5:21

That's a good friend.

SPEAKER_04: 5:23

And so I kind of I got through life that way. Um but I always had the sense that there was something the word stagnant always resonated with me. Um but there was something holding me back, and I just I didn't know how to overcome it at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 5:36

Did you feel that there was this sense of I guess potential, but you weren't quite sure how to tap into said potential?

SPEAKER_04: 5:45

Yeah, the uh mental fortitude I had was like paramount. I was I could never give up. So I actually was uh heavily into martial arts like most of my life and competed in martial arts in an actual uh cage fight. Um so my mental fortitude was always really, really strong. It was my cognition and my ability to intellectualize things that I yeah just had no uh understanding of.

SPEAKER_01: 6:12

So the driver's there, but some of the tools at that point were missing.

SPEAKER_04: 6:16

Correct answer.

SPEAKER_01: 6:17

Um that's a feeling that, yep, I know quite well, um, as I'm sure many of us do. Um so as you went through school and and got older and you know, become a teenager and all that sort of stuff, where there's such a period of change, you know, your identities formed and all that sort of stuff. Um, how was that? And uh I think there were some influences in your home life as well that played its role too?

SPEAKER_04: 6:45

There's a lot of offshoots to that question, Elliot. Um I should uh put the disclaimer down to your uh listeners that I'm very philosophical with my answers, so um I will go on a bit of a journey with the tapestry of words that I use because I'm journey. I love words now. Coming from someone that was 100% like would have been diagnosed as dyslexic, um, and now being a professional counselor, trauma-informed therapist, and doing community work in Newcastle and having a vocabulary, it feels like I have had a cape on my back my whole life and not known how to fly. And now I know how to fly and I love words. So my apologies if I'm using words that people don't exactly pick up straight away because previously in a previous life that was me, and now I can say these words, so I love to fly.

SPEAKER_01: 7:36

I love it, I love it. Um and it and it's true, you know, language is it's another of those tools, I suppose. Like, you know, there's obviously a lot of non-verbal language that goes on and communication, um, but at the same time being able to articulate thoughts and then be able to present it in a way that people can understand. 100%. I guess that's what I try to do on here. I don't know how well I do it, but you know, that's the aim. Um it would have been difficult not being able to I guess do that as naturally and forthrightly as you would like, but as you said, you've got that drive and determination, and you know, I think there's a good lesson just there already, but I think there's gonna be a few more. So um, so yeah, what was the next sort of stage of your development as you know all the all this teenage stuff starts happening and young adulthood? How did how did you overcome these challenges?

SPEAKER_04: 8:33

Like I said, I had a lot of really good friends and connections that helped enable me to get through. Um at the time that I like became well, probably at the age of like 22 and I left to where I grew up in northern New South Wales, Yamba, for anyone that's listening around that area, a beautiful beach town, Vest Waves on the North Coast, you could say, arguably. Um I ended up moving to the Sunshine Coast, and I at that point I was aware enough that I wasn't intellectual enough to do anything with my brain. So smart enough to say that. Uh so I decided I was going to either do one of two things with the brawn. I was going to do a natural bodybuilding competition, or I was going to have an MMA fight because I'd been in martial arts, and they were both my passions. Um and yeah, the MMA fight scared me more. Um, so I decided to have an MMA fight, and that was a lot of life lessons throughout that period, apart from getting punched and kicked in the face, more deep philosophical, uh, appreciating life like uh experiences from that. That most people wouldn't think from someone that jumps in the cage and fights the other man that's meant to beat him up.

SPEAKER_01: 9:43

And you said you found that challenge the more, I guess, anxiety provoking. I wonder why. Um but you chose to go down that path. I'm assuming that that was to do with, I guess, you know, getting a sense of empowerment and you know, if I can do this, I can do anything, that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_04: 10:01

Yeah, and it gives you a good outlook on life because once you have a really hard training session and people are legitimately trying to hurt you, and you know that someone at the end of the road is going to really try and hurt you and potentially kill you, sitting in traffic uh is a whole lot easier. And my baseline for like stress was a lot lower. So it's something that I teach people nowadays where I implement it even within counseling, not the actual muscle arts part, but the mental fortitude of moving your baseline down so we can conduct ourselves a whole lot easier through life.

SPEAKER_01: 10:39

And that's another reason why I'm so excited to have you on, because that idea right there is exactly what needs to happen with me and what needs to happen with a lot of people, I'm sure listeners as well. Um it's all about that baseline just being too high and constantly reving too much. Correct. Um you don't seem as though, you know, you rev too high unless you sort of, I guess, choose to. That's well said as well. And I guess that's a well, it's more than just a skill, it's a I don't know, it's an approach to living, I guess. But um, you know, you've obviously had to work on that to get to that position where you are right now.

SPEAKER_02: 11:19

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 11:20

Um, so uh and the 10-day retreat I'm guessing would be, we'll get into that in a minute, but that's a bit like the whole um, you know, something that's seems like a big challenge, and if I can conquer that, I can just about do anything. Would that be right?

SPEAKER_04: 11:35

Yeah, that's where we kind of tie in that hero's journey, as I mentioned at the start, where you kind of leave your home, leave Yamber, go into a new area, Sunshine Coast, challenge yourself, gain new skills, but then you have to use like the skills that you've fortified and refined for yourself. For me, the martial arts did a little bit of that, but the other side of the coin was having to use my brain and actually turn inwards because everything was so external. Um, and yeah, and when that calling came along, it was fraught with a bit of resistance because I definitely would have been diagnosed with uh dyslexia and ADHD. I could not sit still, team. And if anyone can resonate with this story, because it happened for me every single day. I would be at work, I'd have one of my best friends with me, we'd be talking to the manager or the site manager, and he would say to us, All right, Jay Mitch, this is the task you got to do, A B. And at as soon as he started talking, and this is me at like 28, I would think about something I need to do at home, like my laundry. I would, my brain just went somewhere else. And um, yeah, my boss would tell us that, we'd walk away, and then my mate would tell me what to do, and I'd be like, I didn't hear anything he said. He's like, Jay, you're nodding your head the whole time. I'm like, I know, but that's the brain of someone that is so dysregulated that I did not know how to be in one minute of the moment. So coming into the 10-day silent retreat, I just started meditating for about a year, so there was a bit of a gap there, but all my friends were saying, Jay, you cannot sit still. Like there's no chance in hell that you're doing this 10-day silent retreat. It was at that point I knew I could do a 10-day silent retreat that everybody, except for that voice inside of my head, was telling me you can do it. So that was like the that was the precursor to me shifting from external to internal and intrinsically understanding my brain and how it works and the conditioning side of things, and then reframing literally at a later age, the whole paradigm of the way Jay thinks.

SPEAKER_01: 13:42

That's um it's pretty unreal. Uh and um you're you're selling it to me, I'll tell you that one.

SPEAKER_04: 13:48

Well, I'm not trying to sell you anything.

SPEAKER_01: 13:49

No, I know, but oh mate, fair.

SPEAKER_04: 13:51

I am trying to I tell people this uh as a community support worker. I don't try to sell anyone anything, I try to give them an experience.

SPEAKER_01: 14:00

So with the ADHD, just to drill into that a little bit, um, because I've been sort of researching a bit lately between the connection with ADHD and anxiety and that sort of causing, you know, a lot of this attention jumping around. Did you find that that you had sort of this I don't know, I guess, rush of energy and this I guess, well, anxiety, yeah, basically. Physiologically and cognitively, maybe, or maybe more physiologically, but is that your experience of what you remember from the b B C, I think we were saying earlier?

SPEAKER_04: 14:38

Yeah. We're using a bit of a biblical analogy, team, just prior to the uh podcast where at 28 everything changed for me, as I'm probably about to dive into and allude to soon. But we're gonna call that BC because the J of before 28 was so dysregulated. And after 28 and the experience that I had, which Elliot may prompt me for, um, which I'm happy to allude to, um, everything changed cat cataclysmically. So um, yeah, but a hundred percent. Uh the story that I tell, like I remind people, isn't look what Jay can do in six years, it's look what you can do. But yes, sitting all throughout school, like not being able to spell, not being able to sit still. My friends would have to almost like a mother or father just they would my best friend, he would say, Jay, calm down. And like that was me having my parent tell me you've been too uh you're you're off the look. Extra. And that's it, that's all through my twenties. Like that and that's not something I'm even saying to be proud of. It's it's dysregulation. And it's really not normal because we should be in control of our own body. If we're in control of one thing, there is a at least the illusion that we're in control of ourselves. And if you cannot control yourself, then I don't even have an answer for that for the one.

SPEAKER_01: 15:55

Well then you create a podcast called the Dysregulated Podcast. That's what you do. Um so yeah, so obviously what I'm hearing is classic ADHD. 2000%. Yeah. Which I'm liking hearing that in the sense not because I'm glad you went through it, although that is probably a big part of how you are today. So maybe, you know, in a roundabout way it was a good thing. Um but also because there's a lot of parallels from what I'm hearing of how I have been and how I I guess I still am, um, but a lot of other people I talked to with ADHD as well. And that's why um I think it's you know, it's good to hear this sort of stuff as someone who's still in the BC sort of world, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 16:41

I think we can yeah, we can definitely use this uh logistic.

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

Yeah, yeah. But you did mention that there was a turning point. There was so um so this was I don't I don't know the story, um, but I'm uh guessing it was quite clear cut, you know, if if it's sort of this is when the penny dropped, maybe, or or when circumstances got so challenging and so difficult that well, often I guess we're faced with two choices, and one of them is you know, everything's got to change here because this is rock bottom. Was that sort of what happened here?

SPEAKER_04: 17:22

Yeah, so um yeah, a little disclaimer, team, I will get vulnerable with you all, but I like being vulnerable because if my story can shed a light or reflect anything on anyone else, that is paramount because we are at the end of the day all just reflections of one another and we are connected. And it doesn't get spoken enough about um in a wholehearted way. But like you just alluded to, great words. Sounds like you're almost on the journey with me. But if we follow that story of mine, all the way up until 28, I'm like extremely dysregulated. Um, and at 25, uh I remember waking up one morning because I always had sinus issues, and my friends would be like, Jay, we've never seen you not sneezing. Unbeknownst to me, that's like a massive issue. But at 25, I wake up one morning, I feel like I got a golf ball on the left side of my sinus. And it was almost excruciating, and that didn't stop Elliot for three years. I had an infection that was the size of a golf ball on the left side of my sinus that perpetuated, which I was unaware of with like infections through my bowels and ier bowel syndrome. Um and for three years every single day I couldn't breathe. And I remember not having the words to explain to my family or friends why I felt so stuck. The word stagnant was the word that resonated, but I had no vocabulary for it at the time. And if we go back to when I said I was doing martial arts, my mental fortitude got me through everything. That's what got me through this. I was like, I had this ignorance that was tomorrow I'm gonna wake up and breathe through my nose. But it didn't for three years straight. And there's a quote that says, a fool that persists in his folly will one day become wise. And later on I seen that, and that definitely is like the metaphor for what happened with me. So, team, three years I can't breathe through my nose. I'm like trying to figure out the words to express to someone so they can help me, but I didn't have the words and I didn't have the awareness, I didn't have the know-how. So it comes down to a point where um like I'm at I'm literally up against the wall, and I get a sinus operation team that costs$10,000. And I was thinking at this point it's gonna save my life. I say to my dad the night before because he rings me and says, Jay, this operation, which we thought was gonna be public um through the public system, is gonna be private and you have to pay$10,000. Now, team, I was that adamant about getting the uh surgery because I thought it was gonna save my life. I said, Dad, if they told me that I had to be bankrupt my whole life and I'm gonna continuously pay it off that I can get this surgery sending to fix me, my answer is yes. Which is also the point where I like dissociated from money and I learned that happiness and life and health and wealth are the key pillar. Um so I get this operation. So three years I can't breathe. I get an operation which I think is gonna save my life, they end up traumatizing my nose, going in there, uh, like clean out my turbines, opened up my nose, which has never had air in it for three years, let alone surgical uh equipment, and then they put splints up there. So I can't breathe through my nose even more so, and it's blocked. So for three nights afterwards, I don't sleep, my nose is blocked, but I still have that habitual blow my nose, blow my nose. Now, not knowing that because of being ignorant, I've now ruptured my nose and I have a clot that's sitting at the top of my nose that can't get out because I have splints in my nose. So I've perpetuated this clot, and three years has passed, and I just wanted to be that fool that persisted in his folly to like become wise and breathe. And I go into the shower and my nose is bleeding profusely, and I know that there's a clot stuck in there because I can feel it, but it's not c it's never gonna come out because there's splints in there. And I just had this conversation in my head and I was like, you can't do it anymore. Like it's not a there's three years where you can't breathe and you struggle, and then there's a point where you think it's gonna get better and it doesn't. And I felt like my back was against a wall and I had nowhere to go. And it it I haven't said these exact words ever before to like my family or friends, which gets me a fair A bit emotional, but um, like when you want to end your life, in at least my scenario there, which is like uh individual to me, no one came into my mind. Like, I have so much love for my mum and my dad and my siblings and my best friends, especially. None of them came into my mind because the version of Jay, the I the ego, was obsolete. Like my energy was at zero, I was like deaf energy, and I was legitimately probably dying with the clot in my nose, and I was like, I'm ending my life right here. So if my parents or best friends or anyone hears this, I do want to apologise because I've never mentioned that part, and I don't think I've heard anyone else say it when they've been at the point of wanting to end their life. That no one else at that point, maybe unless someone was there physically, was able to bring me back. It was a conversation in my head, and I had two versions of myself. It was like a dichotomous conversation, death energy, legitimate clots coming out of my nose, not breathing for three years, perpetuating in I'm gonna just kill myself because it's the quickest and easiest thing to do to get out of this. And then that mental brain of the MMA fighter that was always steadfast and would never give up to the detriment of my own body was like the conversation was like the good and the bad wolf. It was like, end your life, don't end your life. And in my head, the good wolf was like, you're never going to end your life, you're too strong to do this. And I almost had a sadistic laugh to myself now, as like the observer in between this conversation. And I was like, if I'm not gonna kill myself right now, every single moment of my life moving forward, every single moment, and I do it even when I'm I I even do it when I sleep now, like dream analysis. I'm gonna put into life. And if my at that point, if we do use a scale from zero to ten, I was a hundred percent at zero with my back to the wall. And the next morning I was at one, and then I knew straight away that I had issues with my breathing. I became a breath professional and educated myself on breath work, and if we use that scaling elite over six years, I would move zero to one the next morning. I would do breath work. I went to uh physio that taught me how to stretch my external cannabinoids, which are the um muscles around your neck. So I would breathe every morning, and one morning I felt what two felt like, and then it dropped back down to one, but that's a 200% increase. And then from there it was six years, which if you want to prompt me on it, you can, because I'm on a roll now about the story. And now I'm at 11, brother, and now I'm the energy alchemist whereby I'm always in a state of being happy and exuberant, and sometimes I might drop down to an eight at its lowest. But I know what eleven feels like, and I have a routine that's very stringent that I move it back up to eleven, and that's where we are now.

SPEAKER_01: 24:59

So do you think the idea the way you've described the good, well, not the good and the bad, but the the light, the darkness, correct, you know, all that sort of stuff, that definitely resonates with how my experiences of my own situation, um, I guess asking myself the question whether, you know, it's worth the go on. Um does the does this idea of is, you know, a lot of people talk about hope. Was hope part of this, or was it a a different, I guess, um feeling from within?

SPEAKER_04: 25:36

That's actually a really good question. I like that. Um the word hope doesn't resonate. There's not a really a word that resonates with me, it's a felt sense. Like where where I was at that brink, there was just a happening, we'll call it, that was we're not giving up. And that that not giving up was like that's always been in my head to this point now where uh educating myself to an intellectual, professional level, I I'm able to transmute that into studying, into having conversations, into if this if we're sitting and having a conversation for two hours, I'm gonna use that laser focus to do that. But you some people probably do have hope, um, and I hope this conversation uh instills hope to people. But for me it was just it was always gonna happen that I just stayed steadfast.

SPEAKER_01: 26:31

That's interesting because um you know the way I've always conceptualized that moment and the the ability to um go again, I guess I've always thought of it in terms of hope, but it's always felt a bit incongruent. It hasn't felt deep enough of a an emotion or a feeling, and you spoke about then how it was this this feeling more than um just a label that's you know, and and yeah, just when you were saying that I felt the same thing because my attitude was like, you know, we're just gotta keep going. And it doesn't matter, you know, you're born to suffer. That's what we're here for. Now get into it. That was in some ways how um, you know, like the Rocky movies, right? Yeah. Love Rocky for obvious reasons. Um, but you know, Rocky is all about just you just keep digging in, you just keep going, you know. Um and that's similar to how I've sort of felt um when I've been in those moments where you know I've just felt this need to go on and this ability to do so and to endure. And I don't know if that, you know, I don't know if that's a unique thing to people like us or if that's a fundamental human um experience. But yeah, just you talking about it then, my first thoughts were, oh yeah, this is hope. But then the way you're explaining, I was like, no, no, there's a bit more to this, and that's that resonates with me too. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04: 28:11

I appreciate it. Hopefully that resonates with other people too, because I'm just speaking my truth at the end of the day, uh being wholehearted and open, and if that helps one person, that's where I I do the things I do now because I do see myself in other people's situations, and uh if I know if I had me by my side at that time, it would have helped a lot. So that's what I try to be for others. There's a lighthouse.

SPEAKER_01: 28:36

So this whole you know, one to two, then back to one, but then to three, sort of in this scaffolding. Um so the breath work was a huge part of this turnaround, I suppose. And this is where I start getting excited.

SPEAKER_04: 28:52

Now obviously there's no video here, but I am definitely smiling from here to hear ear to ear now, like we're about to talk about the love of my life, breath.

SPEAKER_01: 29:03

So so as I sit here right now, I'm I'm certainly not a sceptic, and I wouldn't say that I need convincing. Um, but at the same time, I'm certainly not, you know, zen as a natural sort of approach to living. But I'm also well aware that the people that seem to do these things, they seem a lot calmer than I feel. So, and for example, in this room right now, I'm all jittery and stuff and move my hands around. You know, that's part of the autism too, but still, you know, like there's a lot of nervous energy going on. Whereas you look like you're about to meditate, um, which I couldn't even, you know, conceive of such an idea right now. Um and but you did say that this has been a big, a big shift in mentality and then a big shift in how I guess you approach life and how you're able to approach life. So tell me, if you can, what the process was, um, how long did it take to get the knowledge or the understanding that you needed, and you know, how did how did this all come about?

SPEAKER_04: 30:12

Well, that's a good question because being that I like coach people, and I don't like that word because I prefer to be known as more of a healer or a best friend or someone's number one supporter because I feel like the other words are just a little bit of a talking down of someone else. Um so when I do work with people, it's making it like practical for them. Um and as your question alluded to, at that point I was at zero. It was one making the decision. And I you could probably hear it in my voice. Like, we can talk about all these different things that we want to change, but until we're questioned in the right way and we make a decision that we want to do something, we're not gonna do it. Um, so I just get people to I just ask people. I'm I may not know the answers to Elliot's questions, but I might be able to ask you questions for yourself that give you your own answer. So that's where the counseling comes in and being someone's best friend um comes in. But it was just incremental, brother. There was there was implementation of yoga, there was implementation of breath work, and this is team, this is something I would do every single day, even at work. I would br I would tell my client as I was sitting there, like, just letting you know that I'm just gonna do some one-nosed breathing here, and I would drop into that breath. And um, yeah, so breath work, uh, yoga, infrared sornas, um, cleansing my body through many different uh holistic natural modalities that are a little bit extreme to some degree, but I was just on the journey of uh life, moving that scale from zero all the way up to where it is now at 11. So if you want to ask any specific questions, please do because there's a yeah, a lot to unpack there.

SPEAKER_01: 31:58

Yeah, well, like when I'm at work, you know, and I get stressed, I do a bit of box breathing. I think I think it's box breathing. I don't know. In for four, hold for four. I they taught me this in hospital, um out for four, and then hold for four again, which is the bit I always forget, and I'll just breathe in. I'm like, ah.

SPEAKER_04: 32:15

Well, do you want me to interrupt for a second? And I I actually asked my client this the other day if I could use his use his scenario. Um so I work with a gentleman with spina bifida, and um he has like had like been to the hospital his whole life, and he obviously speaking for him, so hopefully I don't miss up too many of the words can uh till I get to the premise of it. So, needles his whole life, and he had a phobia of getting needles. He and I worked together and then we transitioned into breath work for about three months. I was teaching him the breath work I learned from the 10-day silent retreat, which is an embodiment of breathing, not a methodology of breathing. But you can still use it as you just alluded to whenever you wanted, but it's rather an embodiment. That's why when you see me in this calm state, I do kind of have that very zen energy. It's because I'm doing it all the time. Breathing is a zero-time process activity. You don't need time to do it, you just do it. So this gentleman, spinobifida, in a wheelchair, phobia of needles. I can't imagine how many thousands of needles he's had throughout his life. We do breath work for three months. I have a conversation with him about two months ago, and he goes, Jay, I have my first non-phobia response to a needle because I did the breath work that we were practicing and I downregulated my nervous system. I was breathing through my nose and I didn't get a response. I actually asked him if I could say that story today and he allowed me to say it. So thank you, Mr. Darren. That's very compelling. Um So it's applicable for everything, but it like in practical sense, like this is a pretty high degree of like someone having a phobia to something.

SPEAKER_01: 33:57

So Because I guess that's how I'm looking at it in in the fact that, you know, 24-7, I've said on the show a lot, and it is true, um, that I'm anxious constantly. Like I'm anxious now, for example, and we're mates and we're just talking, you know, but I'm freaking out because it's like, oh, you know, there's a lot of things going on. There's there generally always is, and I've always had this approach, and this is a new thing for me, which is, and we're talking a little bit about it just before we started recording, which is I've always approached my mental health and my anxiety from a very intellectual, cognitive sort of way.

SPEAKER_04: 34:36

Yep, we know this.

SPEAKER_01: 34:38

So yeah, so it's you know, it's the thoughts that are wrong, it's and then it's these wrong thoughts that I'm attaching some sort of belief to, which is then causing this nervous system to be in fight or flight.

SPEAKER_04: 34:51

Which is like not the worst thing, but like in a spiritual sense, and I'll ask everyone this question, if you you can have your eyes open, but can you tell me where like if you have a thought right now, can you tell me where that thought was prior to you having it?

SPEAKER_01: 35:08

Wouldn't have a clue.

SPEAKER_04: 35:09

And then where do those words go that you just uttered out your mouth where wouldn't have a clue where'd they go? What words? Exactly. So how are we in control with this like cognitive behavior therapy, which does it's very like empowering, but the whole concept of we can't control our thoughts. So trying to control something we're not in control of is doesn't have any rationale or substance. And that's where the understand yourself, become aware, and spirituality kicks in. But spirituality has a bit of a hippie word to it in the Western culture, just becoming aware. Because if we don't know where that thought went to, and I don't know where the last word that I just said goes to, how can we control what is coming in and out of our brain?

SPEAKER_01: 35:51

Which is yeah, like that's I I can't see how there's an argument against that. And you just gotta think, think of all the evening And I'm not I'm not discrediting it like by any sense. I'm just Well, CBT. Oh, it's rubbish.

SPEAKER_04: 36:05

I hate it. I hate CBT.

SPEAKER_01: 36:07

No, I do though, because like for me, I know that a lot of these thoughts that come in from who knows where are ridiculous. So I challenge the logic of this ridiculous idea that I already know is got no, you know, evidence for it. And then it doesn't do anything because it's it's still triggering this response, the emotional response, and the nervous system as well. Um, and that's why for a lot of people, CBT doesn't work, and I'm one of those people, and I think there's more people out there than the research would suggest. Um but because like I said, yeah, I I've always tried to change the thoughts and and then thought that the nervous system stuff, you know, all the all the physical responses of anxiety, of which I'm displaying a few now, very jittery. Um, you know, I I thought it was coming from the mind first and then the body sort of second, but I'm now starting to shift this way of thinking that maybe it's my body that is constantly physically in this, I guess, fight or flight mode. And then that in itself lowers whatever walls I've supposedly got, which I don't think I've got any, um, that then lets all these cognitions and stuff in. So it's completely turning my perspective of these things around because you know, I've done years and years of therapy and lots of introspection as far as the actual cognitions are concerned. Um, but the way you're talking, which which sounds like it's got a better um, you know, strike rate of helping people at the moment, you know, this is anecdotal, of course, but still, you know, like um I've tried the other way and all you gotta do is listen to this podcast and know that I haven't been able to figure this out. So it is time for me and um and probably I would say for a lot of people to really flip the script and change the equation and and yeah, that's what I'm trying to do. And then I guess that's why it's exciting to have you on here because you are from the other side of the the other camp, you know? And um it's intriguing.

SPEAKER_02: 38:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:23

You know, it's not that I need convincing, like I said, but I need to know what to do in a way.

SPEAKER_04: 38:29

How about we put Jay the professional like individual as a I'm a professional human being at the end of the day, professionally in many other crafts, but I like it, the title of professional human being. So how about we put me on notice and you ask me a question that you are currently struggling with, and we haven't pre-planned this at all, and then if that resonates with people, then I'll help. I'm not gonna give you an answer. What I probably will do is increase your awareness around your questions so you become more aware of your own answer. Well, a big problem I put myself on notice here, Dan.

SPEAKER_01: 39:04

Yeah, anything could happen here. Um, and of course, no editing because because I can't sit still and concentrate enough to edit, so this is just gonna keep going. Um Well at work I am customer-facing, correct. And there's a lot of social interactions. Now, for someone like me, um, social interactions is not something that is easy. So every time a customer I've spoken this on the shelves, well, every time a customer comes up and it's walking towards me, I always get this feeling, oh no, here we go. This is gonna, you know, it's more the feeling than the actual thinking, but it's this trepidation, this fear that something really bad is about to happen from this social interaction, you know, like I've got to be on show here and you know, I've got to protect myself because, you know, they're gonna be angry, they're gonna do something that's gonna, you know, and it's gonna wear me out because I can't talk to people all the time. And you can see already while they're walking over, I'm already going a billion miles an hour. So what are your thoughts on that sort of situation? And um yeah, what what would you not what would you tell me? Well let's tell me what do you reckon?

SPEAKER_04: 40:23

How many people would you come in contact with a day where this like these thoughts come in your head where you're feeling that as say I'm walking towards you? How many? Just a random number X a day.

SPEAKER_01: 40:35

Hundred?

SPEAKER_04: 40:36

Okay, and that thought's happening a hundred times almost out of a hundred?

SPEAKER_01: 40:41

Yeah, I reckon so.

SPEAKER_04: 40:42

And how many out of those hundred, after we do have a conversation, does it go like the script in your head so negatively? Or does it end up being a good conversation where I just ask where the shovels are at bunnies?

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

Yes, exactly. So how many So someone's coming over and I'm thinking, oh god, here we go. And he's like, I'm like, yeah, mate, yeah, yeah, what is it, you know. Um trying my best to hide my disdain, but it's not really disdain, it's like here we go again, you know, but it's like here we go again.

SPEAKER_04: 41:07

But how many times does it is it as bad as a cinematic part in your head? Or is it a lot better?

SPEAKER_01: 41:13

I reckon over the nine and a bit years I can think of and you always remember the bad customers.

SPEAKER_04: 41:19

So, you know, if if something were to happen at just the ones that aren't as bad as you thought it'd be.

SPEAKER_01: 41:26

99.8 of humans or human interactions are fine, and that point two.

SPEAKER_04: 41:34

And no, no, we just when we leave that there as it is, like that's the massive incongruence of it is that um if 99.8%, like you said, are good, and there's only a very small that it doesn't go good, but your brain is telling you that it's going to be bad. What it what you're pretty much doing and what we learn through mindfulness and breathing properly is that life is like we're watching a movie. And if you're watching the movie of someone coming towards you, what you do in between is you get in between it and you start inserting yourself in the movie and telling yourself that this person's about to like abuse me, they're gonna ask me a question, I don't know, I'm gonna get anxiety. But we get in our own way, and through mindfulness, through breathing practices, through embodiment, if we call it yoga as well, we are be able to become aware of Elliot and his thoughts. So your thoughts are there. We allow the next time it's and you can use so many different like uh modalities leading into it with your breath, but the more aware of Elliot is when let's say I'm walking towards you, and the thought comes, oh, this person's gonna say something that's gonna irritate me or I'm gonna have anxiety, it's how quickly can Elliot become aware of that thought and then bring ourselves back to the back of the desk. Go back to the exception of 99.8% of people aren't gonna do that. We can use our breath to calm our nervous system to go into a parasympathetic nervous system rather than a sympathetic nervous system. And listening to so many people speak because we only know what we know, not what we've been told, I think it's good for listeners to hear there is a difference physiologically between sympathetic and parasympathetic. Because we know what the word is, but we don't know what that means. Elliot walking in today was sympathetic, agitated. He came in here, said that he had a dry mouth team. These like dilated eyes. When you're in a sympathetic nervous system, they're the physiological effects. We can't rationalise things properly. Because if we are running away from a proverbial tiger, we're not thinking about doing X, Y, Z. We're only thinking about climbing up the tree. That's where it sounds like you are when the people are coming towards you. When we breathe slow, diaphragmatically, nasal breaths, and we control our. Nervous system. The blood runs away from our extremities because we're fighting or flighting. That's what sympathetic nervous system is. We control ourselves through autonomic nervous system. We go into parasympathetic rest and digest where we do have saliva in our mouth because we're resting and digesting, and we're able to cognizize things at a more rational level. So there's many different things I would do with you, but the first off is knowing that you need to get in between your thoughts and not let them run off because you've explained the exception that 99.8% of people aren't doing that to you. And then we add in the actual practicality, which is the breath work, which is the embodiment, which is the understanding of the tools and the techniques you can use in that situation. It's actually so easy that people make it complicated, like you just said.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Yeah. And that maps onto like neuroscience as well. Like the amygdala is the one that's saying, right, oh, holy dooley, there's threat everywhere. You've got to always be on your toes.

SPEAKER_04: 44:59

Which is good for 10% of your day, not 98% of the day where most human beings are at.

SPEAKER_01: 45:05

Yeah. And then I like this idea of getting yourself in between.

SPEAKER_04: 45:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 45:10

Is essentially allowing the prefrontal cortex to um you know look at the situation with a bit of logic and, you know, thinking properly, and then get in between this amygdala hijack that's just going. And then stand in front and then use those higher order processes, thinking processes, to, I guess, what was the word, rationalise or or come up with a you know, a more logic, a logically, I guess, um view of what's about to happen and what usually happens, because the evidence is quite clear that you know everything's fine, really.

SPEAKER_04: 45:46

It's almost like you're at a zoo and there is a tiger, which elicits the sympathetic nervous system, and there's a wall between you, but you're now tell- you're fully safe. Everyone knows they're safe at a zoo between the wall and the tiger. But you are telling yourself that that tiger is going to jump over there, come through that. Now, you tell someone else out of the zoo, you tell Folyod that they laugh at you because they know that the tiger is behind the cage. But you've gotten in your own head, and that's the film analogy that I'm using before, that we become more aware of what is happening, actually happening, rather than being connected to the situation and telling ourselves a story that isn't true. The pre-ramble of that tiger's jumping over that, getting through that guard with the gun, coming behind here where I'm safe as sound through three locked doors is nonsensical. Now, I don't want to diminish it because I've been in the same scenario, but the understanding of that uh we can become more separated from our thoughts, use the breath, use the embodiment to get through these situations is hope for people. Because I've done it. You can do it right now, and everyone at home might have a scenario now where they're implementing it in their mind's eye.

SPEAKER_01: 47:00

Yeah, because when the customer's coming over, like I can see what my thoughts are telling me is gonna happen. Like I'm in it, you know, and I sort of disassociate a bit. And then I'll when they come over, I've got sort of snap myself out of it and go, Oh, hang on, we've got to talk and you know, actually make some sort of sense. That's what human interactions are about. And then at the end of it, usually I'm like, oh, that was that was a pretty nice person. That's I'm you know, I'm glad we had that interaction. Oh no, here comes another one. Holy dooly. And yeah, like my amygdala or whatever you want to call it, although that is it, but still, you know, wherever this fear is coming from, it just floods in and there is no separation between me and the feeling and what I can see happening, and it completely takes over. Whereas what you're talking about, the film sort of this, you know, separating from this process.

SPEAKER_04: 47:55

It just, yeah, mindfulness 101 to a T is uh not letting our minds race, but becoming aware. I get it all the time, and mindfulness is a constant practice where even for myself, I'll be thinking something if I'm in the car, and as soon as my brain leaves the car and goes into, I've got to get here at this time, and then that's my mindfulness and awareness saying, come back to where you are right now, Jay. Because we can't control our next thought and we can't control where our thought goes. So the only thing we can seemingly control is here and now, the internal moment of now.

SPEAKER_01: 48:31

So is it like a muscle in that sense? Correct. You know, the more you do it, the better you get, you know, like this is you know well fundament it's not basic. I'm not gonna say it's basic because it's not, because if it was, everyone would be able to do it. So it's not basic, but it is fundamental.

SPEAKER_04: 48:48

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 48:49

And you know, I'm the sort of person that if I can believe that the goal is attainable, then I'll work hard for it. My problem is I need to have that belief first. And if the belief's not there, well then I just expect, you know, rejection, sensitivity, you know, all that sort of stuff. So really, I guess partly what I'm wanting from today, and I think you are providing it quite well, is you know, I I'd like to be able to have the belief that if I really give this a go, it'll be worthwhile and you know, the results will be there. Whereas typically previously in therapy, you know, the belief hasn't really been there, so I've never you know engaged with the process properly. Um but you are building a compelling case.

SPEAKER_04: 49:37

Uh as I as I said, and I'm not even trying, and it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01: 49:41

Well, exactly. And like the whole point of this wasn't, you know, I'm not a cynic or anything, but I also um, you know, belief in things is not my natural sort of forte and approach to things. So yeah, no, it's um it's it's very, very interesting.

SPEAKER_04: 49:58

It's uh well I can use the um the the 10-day silent retreat team. So most people struggle to sit for a minute, let alone 10 days. Now I did say 10 days, I'm not saying that in some sort of uh accolade way. You can if you want. That's unreal. I am sitting with my legs crossed right now, uh, if you were able to see this team. Although, as a story from that, there's two absolute gems where because we are all like mirrors and one number, we are all connected to an invisible thread. I can give you the gems that I learned from the 10-day silent retreat. So hopefully you might not have to lean into a 10-day silent retreat. Um, which can most certainly help with people I implement it still to this day. One of them is not attaching to good or bad things. So when you sit down for 10 days straight, and prior to this I wasn't doing much yoga, so my knees were in excruciating pain. So by day three, in my head, I'm getting caught up in the film. I'm thinking about walking out, I'm thinking about going home, grabbing a coffee, go on the beach, going to the gym, hanging out with my mate saying, I did all right, I did three days. Now, Vipassana teaches you that the more we attach to something, the the more heightened it becomes. So me complaining about my knees hurting on day three and I've got seven more days, is that making my knees better or is it making it worse because the pain is there? I've like that situation is not going to end. So me perpetuating it only makes it worse. So during the 10-day silent retreat, we learn that if we have an aversion to a bad feeling, any bad feeling, and your viewers can just think about anything that they have a bad feeling about. That makes us try and get away from it, right? That's where we have anxiety or even depression. But the same is also true if we have a good feeling, and this is where addiction comes in. So I'm addicted to a good feeling, and it can it can be addiction, but it could also be something that I really like doing, hanging out and talking to you. But then what ends up happening is we have a scale now, a seesaw. And if we use the uh even the good feeling and the addiction, we're not always going to be able to stay in that state. There's gonna be a point where I'm just sitting at home by myself, aimless. And because now there's such a big uh difference on that seesaw where I really love that high and I can't be that high all the time, so now I'm down here, I drop down and I feel that depressive state because I'm not no longer in that heightened state of arousal, enjoying myself with friends. I could even be drugs, it could be whatever other vice you have. You learn that rather than go between high and low, you sit in the middle, you are watching the film. Holy F and shit, my knees are hurting, but I'm not gonna attach to the fact that they hurt. And then I also understand that I enjoy life and I like hanging out with my friends and playing sport and being active. But I just want to become more sensitive to both those feelings, not attach them because everything is always impermanent. If that seesaw goes up too far one side, it's always gonna uh, because of polarity, move the other way. So I learned three days in that the more I complain about my knees, the worse it's gonna get. And that's the actual teaching of Gautama, the Buddha for any of uh the spiritual uh people that are listening is that it's not attachment. It wasn't the now. We learn to not attach the good or bad. Like you said, it's like refining a muscle though, because every single moment it's like refresh, start again, start again, which goes back to the eternal now. There's one more little thing, and this is the most profound part of this story when it comes to addiction and dopamine, which I'm fascinated in as well. Addiction to phones. So we don't have our phone on us. We're not allowed to talk, we're not allowed to make eye contact. It's meant to stimulate being out in the jungle by yourself for 10 days. Now, boredom kicks in pretty quickly because you're obviously by yourself with your own mind. I'm sitting in my room on the fourth day of a 10-day silent retreat team. I know I don't have my phone. And on the fourth day, I'm sitting in my room playing with I had a toothpick. I'm pretending I was playing Dragon Ball Z for anyone out there. Um, because I used to do that with my best mate when I was a kid, to pass the time. And on the fourth day, as a knee jerk reaction, classical conditioning, uh, as I'm sure most people Pablo and his dog, I go to get my phone, knee jerk reaction, boredom, massive boredom, high, highest state of boredom I've ever been in. And I'm like, I am now catching myself, goes back to awareness. Jay, you just went to grab your phone on the fourth day of a silent retreat, Elliot, viewers. I went to grab my phone two more times that day out of a knee jerk, classical conditioning uh reinforcement of boredom. At that point, I have six more days to ruminate on the fact that if I'm not in control of my own body's reaction to grabbing my phone, what am I in control of? And then I start to unpack that onion, which is a probably a two-hour podcast where I'm at now, where for the last six years I've been unpacking that. I've been taking myself out of the movie and sitting back and being the observer and learning that everything is abundant and full and I love life. But that story changed my whole dynamic and allowed me to become more aware of myself and not getting caught up in the movie. Did you have a lot of anxiety as well? Oh, I had a lot of knee pain, as I'll say again. That was um yeah. If out of the MMA fight and 10-day silent retreat, they both sit equally there. And I got cauliflower ear for anyone that does MMA or plays rugby. My ear got terrible during fire camp. So and they both sat equally at the top. I didn't get anxiety, I just got a lot of I was fraught with a lot of struggle and resistance to be by myself. And it what I learned was I love my best friends and my family. Now, at the end of 10 days of talking, it goes into what I do now of community work, so we're closing the hero's journey. Um I learned that connection is so key and pivotal to life. Um the most beautiful thing at the end of 10 days is hearing Elliot, if you're doing the 10-day silent retreat, and I've seen you sit next to me in silence for 10 days. Hearing you speak was like the most, I'll use the word, uh, orgasmic feeling I'd ever felt. So we were connecting because we'd connected on this non-verbal level, but just words were the most orgasmic thing that I ever heard. And it was so like beautiful just to sit and listen to people to talk for hours on end after that. I was at a peak high at the end of those 10 days. But that's the experience of we all are going to have struggles, but we need the right people around us, the right connection, the right mental fortitude that gets us through those hard times that are gonna help us uh get through because we shouldn't be doing it alone. That's one of my other things. When we lose Elliot and Jay and the ego, and we fall into that collective environment, uh, whether that be playing a sport, doing breath work, doing yoga, any other thing where we lose I and we become a little bit more of the collective, all our issues are gone temporarily.

SPEAKER_01: 57:48

That is fascinating because um I I've well like I said, social interactions are uh difficult. Like they wear me out, you know. So that makes the idea of connection a bit, you know, like it's a lot of effort, you know, it hurts a bit too. Um and then when you also layer with that with um this expectation for rejection, which again is just the fear center, you know, saying, All right, well, if we expect rejection, you know, it we'll be safe from it then, because we we won't go looking for connection at all. So natural survival uh mechanism of the body.

SPEAKER_04: 58:29

Yeah, exactly. In a very dysregulated way.

SPEAKER_01: 58:31

But but well, yeah, but as you said, the tiger's actually, you know, it's in the like what what's why why are we freaking out here, you know? Um and I guess that's why this is so important to me, because I have been coming to this conclusion that I, you know, I'm better off on my own, I'll just do my own thing, you know, it's it's fine, it's all good. Um, but then you saying all that makes me wonder, do I really believe that doing my own thing on my own is the best way, or am I, you know, this idea of connection that I believe is probably the better way to do things, but at the moment it seems impossible because it causes all this stress and anxiety. And then you're now saying here's a way to get rid of a lot of that stress and anxiety, so then these connections it becomes organic again and it's enjoyable, and then that is the meaning to life. It's like, whoa, you know, like what else has my anxiety been stopping me from you know reaching out for that's fundamental to the human experience? Because there's obviously look, you listen to this podcast, it's not me talking from a position where I've you know I've kicked mental illness and everything's sweet, you know, like it's not. Um, you know, they're still doing their thing or whatever it is, however you want to conceptualize it. You know, this is still a daily battle, and a lot of these days it doesn't feel like I'm winning, you know. Um and you said way earlier that part of your experiences growing up and stuff was that you were getting in the way of yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:11

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:12

And a word that's followed me around for so long is this word, and I hate it, but maybe I need to learn to love it, which is potential. And I hate it because I've always seen or felt that I haven't been able to realize this potential, and it's probably well, it definitely is, um, because I've been getting in the way of myself.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:34

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:35

So you bring all this together, and even you're talking about the seesaw um effect of what goes up real high and the dopamine and stuff, and I was thinking then that's ADHD, classic, classic ADHD. Um so that all makes sense, you know, it all makes sense, but like I said, what really this conversation for me was going to come down to was whether I would have this feeling of belief in this, and I really want to, and but at the same time I wasn't well, you can't force it, can you? Either, you know, you do start to believe or you don't, you know. Um and I am starting to believe, which is great, because you know, what I've been doing traditionally has not done the job because you know, there's a lot of potential, it seems, that's being squandered, still being squandered. Um whereas you're sitting opposite me, you're like a complete opposite to me. You know, I'm sitting here all jittery and moving everything around, you're just chill. Um and you're offering these experiences or not so much the experiences, because that's all unique, but it's the transformation and the mindset that you're now in and what it's allowing you to do in life. And then I hear about connections, and it's like, connections, I'd almost given that away, you know, and I was I've I've almost become comfortable with the idea of not, you know, even though I know that connection is what it's all about, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:12

That's in many ways why I do this podcast, because it's I want to connect with people on a certain level, I guess like an intellectual but emotional and let me interrupt just quickly, because it's a beautiful when you listen to words, you were talking about trying to believe coming into this what I was saying could uh work for you. And then you just then, Elliot, use the word you know that connection's key. And how you do you believe your parents are your parents, or do you know your parents are your parents? Oh, I know. Yeah. And we things that we believe are still a little bit abstract. Things that we know we have that felt sense. Survival when your back is against War Yuan, Xiao Yuan, and your life. Connection is I know that when I'm running around with my best friends, my issues dissipate for at least that time that I'm running for an hour. If I'm kicking a ball, my best friends, if anyone can think of their favorite sport or favorite thing to do in a collective energy, that's where that knowing comes in. We all know it. Without love, we're not born. Without the six years of our caregivers being there for us, we don't survive. We know that connection and love is key. We can believe in other things, but we know this. So my suggestion for everyone as a listener is if there's something that you know and give yourself a little bit of noble silence, lean into that. If it's some sort of sport, if it's a book reading club, if it's starting a new thing, give yourself a little bit of silence because we all know connection's key. Find where that connection is for you, or reach out to someone that knows within the community where connection is, and then lean into that connection because you know that connection's key. I know that love and connection are key, and so does everyone out here listening, just because we vibrate off that frequency.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:56

Yeah, and you know, the biggest high that I get is well, one of them is, for example, I do my presentations for Black Dog, um, but it's not during the presentation, it's not even the end when it's like, oh, I can relax now, you know, how good's this? It's after when people then come up to me and share some insights into their own story. And I've always maintained this. I've done an episode on it four years ago, I think it was, I think it's called My Greatest Honor. Um, of course, a brilliant episode. But but why am I laughing? But the um the premise of it is that it is an honour, it's a privilege to have this level of connection with people. I've always maintained I'm a lover, not a fighter. You know, you're you're both.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:42

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:43

Right. And actually I I say that, but no, I'm a fighter too, in in my own way, and I guess we all are.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:49

Which is beautiful to hear, like it's empowering to hear that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:51

Oh, big time, big time. I'm I yeah. But I'm much more comfortable, I guess, admitting the I am a fighter part, but I also know innately that it's the lover part that's the real Yeah, the fighting stuff's good, and that's protected me, and that's why I'm still here. Um But the reason that there's the fight is because of the love, the potential is the protector of our it's like the yeah, the Trojan walls before you get into the building.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:22

We all put up our own walls, and the quote that comes to mind is it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. So we all have that side of ourselves. Women have it with their masculine, we have it with our feminine. So it's good to understand that shadow where that warrior is. And then it's better to embody it but never have to ever use it and just give up give as much love as humanly possible. Because love resides in all of us.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:51

That's right. It it does. And it's the I don't know. It's yeah. Um and it's It's it's important as well. Like we've spoken a lot about ADHD. Um but one of the other disorders I've got is borderline personality disorder. Now BPD is horrendous. They're all horrendous in their own way, but BPD is particularly sinister in the sense that it tries to convince you um that love isn't for you. You know, you're you've got something wrong, you're, you know, you're you're defected somehow, you know, you're not worthy of this. And that's a that's unfortunately something that I've struggled to push back against. Um and there's been some experiences um where you know maybe I love too much, you could almost say, but at the same, you know, I feel a bit burnt by it all.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:53

Um, but then it's like, okay, hang on, hang on. How much is this is just actually underlying anxiety that's just trying to, you know, protect from from because love has caused all this pain previously. But you know, like it's you know, it there's so much more to it than that. But again, it just ties back to this fundamental, I guess, physiological, the nervous systems trying to protect and fight off all these, you know, and it's like I think in doing that it's it's shutting off what is really the core of being human.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:30

There we go. There we go. So there you go. Hit the crux.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:33

So, you know, it's um as somebody, as I said, although we all are, that's the whole point, but like, you know, I know within that you know, my brand of love is uh is very unique.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:46

Um but at the same time everyone's love is like stardust at the end of the day. Yeah, that's the beautiful part about it, that your uniqueness is your uniqueness, and everyone else has that stardust in them. But we never want to be an imposter version of someone else. The beautiful part about someone is that the way they laugh or the quirkiness in the way that they talk or what they do their idiosyncratic ways. That's beautiful. That's why I love refining in people. I love when someone has freckles on their face, like that's the beauty. Someone that looks exactly like someone else who's an imposter does not appeal to me whatsoever. Because these things are fleeting. But again, it goes back to that love and connection and embodiment, which is we all have that. We do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:29

And when I say I need belief, it's not that I need belief in the I guess the you know the the how important and how deep love is as a concept and the feeling, everything goes with it. I already know that. I don't need belief in the fact that I have it and that you know there's a lot of good in that, even if sometimes it's gone a bit, you know, haywai, but that's okay. The belief that I guess I've needed and need but am getting is that I'm able to tap into it in a healthy way that's not self-destructive. Um, I know it's a good thing, I know it's a fundamental, I know connection and all that is is, you know, I know I pretend I you know don't need that, but obviously, you know, I'm not yeah, I'm not I'm not that silly. Um but the belief is that I'm able to lower those walls and be accepting of the fact that I am able to use this in a good way and that it will do good things for me. I can believe that in other people, you know, like if anyone else was to say this sort of stuff, I'd be like, oh come on, man, you know, you know, humans are social beings, it's all about connection. You know, it's easy, but obviously talking about these things with the self um is is difficult. Yeah, is difficult. Um, but it is a fundamental of being, and that's you know, it's it's my I guess goal is to then now get into a position physiologically, psychologically, all of that, um where I'm able to approach, I guess, this this this phenomena in a way that's not approaching it with fear and seeing bad things happening and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it does sound as though you know intellectually I already know, and I know this. I mean, you know, I know what's going on. I've got lots of insight, too much insight, I reckon. But you know, like I know the thought processes, I know, you know, if we want to put them around diagnoses and stuff, I know how it fits, and I know, you know, but it's it's the belief that this can be changed and good things can happen. And I think fundamental for me is to dial down the anxiety around everything, um, but then that also dials down the walls around everything, which is what's so important.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:03

And I think if my story can reflect anything, it's like 28 years old with the diagnosis of like learning difficulties, ADHD, and now becoming a professional in many different fields, it's not look what Jay can do, it's look what other people can do. Um, because we all have our own hero journey. But if we're going to have something for five minutes, we can learn to not have it for 10 minutes and an hour and a day. So we're just leaning into that collective energy each time and then dissolving the illusion of uh those issues temporarily.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:38

I am addicted to my phone though. If that but if that 10-day silent retreat story doesn't hit home to everyone else, like that was four days, so but I I don't know, like I I check the graph of who's listening to the podcast like every half hour. Can I live and die by that number?

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:55

Which is like I think it's also good it's also sound of a sound mind to normalise it and not over put a perfectionist mind even on the art of being mindful because still people have that perfectionist mentality of it, it's constantly refining, just like a muscle. Um but yeah, that is if there's something to take away, it's just anyone listening out there, if they can lean into one thing that they're fraught with a bit of resistance about what they want to do, even if it's dancing, play a sport, like kick a ball around, invite your friend around, tell your mum your lover, and feel what that feeling feels like, and then refine that and work on that like each and every single day, and you'll live at least a much better life.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:40

I love it. Well, I reckon that's a good place to pause because let's be honest, we're gonna come back to this. We've got we've got more to talk about. Um, and but at the same time, I think that's really powerful. And I've really enjoyed because I guess you can approach this idea of the breath work and stuff very neurobiologically.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:03

You get intellectualised.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:05

And you know, I I wouldn't again this is for me personally, you know, there is a spot a place for this too, but for me as I'm sitting here right here, right now, um, I wouldn't have gained anything really from that because I already know it. Um but it is this more holistic, you know, spiritual. I know not everyone likes that term, you know, thinking it's a bit woo-woo, but you know, we are human spirits at the end of the day. Like it's, you know, again, the fundamentals.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:32

We uh think too much, Elliot, and feel too little. And once we start feeling, we start to become much more realigned with our purpose and intention in life. And that way we can self-navigate uh the terrain of our life a whole lot easier.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:46

That up and down the dysregulation. Well, thank you, Jay. Thank you, Elliot. Love it, mate. Good to see your face. This has been a long time coming.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:55

It has been. I feel like I've met a white elephant.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:57

And I I'd like to and that's one of the best compliments I think I've ever had. Um, and I'd like to think that, you know, it's the universe that has decided now is the time, you know, we can't rush these things. So I'm gonna blame the universe for the reasons I've got to be careful saying that. Um no, but it's it's it's great to get you on the show and to hear your insights. And like I said, there's plenty more to talk about. There's more of your story to talk about, I reckon, as well. Um, but that was very um, yeah, like I've known you for a fair while, but you know, the vast majority of that is is you know, obviously I've got a bit of an idea of the transform because I've sort of seen it from you know, not not from right next to you, but sort of floating around.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:45

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:46

Um but this is definitely a level of insight that goes beyond what I was expecting. Um and so for that I thank you. Uh I thank you for coming on. I thank you for starting to get the ball rolling as far as me and potentially this belief thing goes.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:03

And then just say, you know, just say it is gonna happen before we close. Like put yourself out there for yourself and the viewers. Like, not potentially, it is, it's an embodiment.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:12

I'm telling you, box breathing.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:14

You just say you're gonna do it. Just come in and do one of the breathwork connection sessions that myself or one of my good friends are gonna do. Just say you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:23

I'm I'm I'm gonna do it. There we go. And I'm gonna record it. It's on record. And it's gonna be pretty quiet because I won't be saying anything, but that's all we've got to do because we've all done that. Like just lean into it. Nah, I love it. I love it. No, very good. Thank you, mate. Appreciate it. All right, thank you, everybody. Have a good one.